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Red-light cameras not quite illegal

Martin Bater, Correspondent

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Published: Thursday, November 6, 2008

Updated: Thursday, November 6, 2008

Despite state law, officers can enforce violations caught on red-light cameras. That’s because runni

Special to the Oracle

Despite state law, officers can enforce violations caught on red-light cameras. That’s because running a red light is a city ordinance violation, not a traffic violation.

At first, it sounds like a paradox: Red-light cameras have been installed at intersections around USF to catch people who run lights, but it’s against state law to use the cameras to enforce traffic violations.

Though Florida law states that these red-light cameras are illegal in some situations, the Temple Terrace Police Department hasn’t done any anything wrong, said department spokesman Michael Dunn.

“(Running a red light) is not a traffic violation, it is a city ordinance violation,” he said.

A report issued by Deputy State Traffic Operations Officer Mark C. Wilson on Nov. 27 said that “current Florida Law does not allow the use of red-light running Cameras for the enforcement of a traffic violation. The Florida Department of Transportation does not allow the use of red-light running cameras on any of our intersections on the State Highway System.”

Dunn said the red-light cameras aren’t a problem, however, because the report stated that cameras cannot be put on Florida Department of Transportation property — a rule the police department has followed.

“If it was illegal, we wouldn’t put them up,” he said.

In February, the Temple Terrace City Council passed an ordinance that allowed the installation of red-light cameras in Temple Terrace.

Nine months later, the cameras are spread out across nine locations, including Fowler Avenue and 56th Street, Fowler Avenue and Riverhills Drive, and 56th Street and Bullard Parkway.

American Traffic Solutions, an Arizona-based company that provides photo-traffic safety and electronic-toll enforcement programs, installed the cameras.

The cameras catch unsuspecting drivers in the act of running a red light. They are designed to take two digital photos and record digital video of the offense, according to templeterrace.com.

The Temple Terrace Police Department reviews and confirms the violation and sends the vehicle owner a “Notice of Violation,” or a fine. There is a $100 fine for the first offense, and the cost escalates for each additional offense.

Dunn said they mail the notices because the police department doesn’t have enough staff to sit at an intersection and pull people over, adding that it is very difficult to catch someone who just ran a red light.

“You basically need two cars: One to see where the person enters the intersection and another car to be positioned so that you can see where the person passed the light,” he said. “Then the car has to zoom out and catch that car in heavy traffic, and that is very dangerous.”

Some students said the Temple Terrace police should employ other methods of ticket delivery.

Some students who live on campus don’t check their mail because they use their parents’ home addresses as their primary mailing addresses and don’t expect to receive anything at their campus mailboxes.

“People that don’t check their mail are going to be fined for not paying their ticket when they didn’t even know they got a ticket in the first place,” freshman Daniel Robinson said.

The computer engineering major said he never checks his mail, and “probably has a ticket in the mail right now.”

Robinson said he thought that if he did get a ticket, he would have to pay it no matter what, but that is not the case.

Students can appeal the ticket by requesting a hearing in writing. The appeal needs to be mailed by the date specified on the Notice of Violation. If the appeal is won, the person doesn’t have to pay the fine. If the person is found liable, he or she must pay $50 for court costs on top of the fine within 15 days of the hearing.

“I think the cops should show up at your door and give the notice to you in person,” said biomedical science sophomore John Williams. “Either that or they should pull you over.”

Williams said the mailing system cannot be relied upon for something like giving out notices, and that many things can happen after the letter gets to the mailbox, such as a roommate throwing it out.

According to the Temple Terrace City Council, the installation of red-light cameras ensures safer driving.

The council pointed out a Philadelphia report, which stated that signal violations at intersections with red-light cameras dropped 96 percent after one year of operation.

The report is not uncontested, however. Last March, the USF College of Public Health said red-light cameras increase the likelihood of car crashes.

Other states have a similar point of view, as the Virginia Transportation Research Council found that crashes at intersections with the cameras increased by 29 percent.

Director of Communications and Public Affairs for American Traffic Solutions Josh Weiss refutes USF’s findings.

“The report’s findings are also the exact opposite of what our clients nationally have experienced,” he wrote in a statement. “We place no credibility in this obviously biased study.  We have more faith in the chiefs of police and traffic professionals than a disgruntled academician who clearly has some ax to grind.”

Comments

23 comments
Joe Public
Tue Jun 30 2009 21:15
These tickets are a scam. I was stopped at light (shows my break lights on in picture) because there was a Temple Terrace Police Officer behind me (shows up in picture also) and I was still issued a ticket. SCAM - The city of Temple Terrace are nothing more than THIEVES - SCAM!!!!!
Your name
Sun May 24 2009 16:50
READ THIS...
My family has lived in the Tampa/USF area for 25 years (since 1984) and have 5 adult drivers (2 have been driving since 1984 and me and my brothers since 1991). Through out this time as a family we have collectively gotten 2 tickets in 25 years. Now... we have had 3 red-light tickets to 3 different drivers/vehicles in the same family in the LAST THREE MONTHS.
I agree with AMSISBS' comment. It is funny how this new safety measure has suddenly shown up during the recession.
When the first ticket that was mailed... we just said, "Well drivers should be more careful it is after all a violation." After the second ticket we said, "Wow, they are really cracking down on this."
The third ticket was given to my 65 y/o mother who literally drives 20 miles UNDER the speed limit and gets honked at by cars all the time for going too slow...and has NEVER received a ticket in 35 years of driving. This is her first one.
This is a violation alright... but not a traffic one. The least they could do is put it in an envelope labeled "bend over!"
AMSISBS
Fri May 8 2009 13:10
It's really not that complicated. Red light cameras are only used to create a revenue stream for the incestuous relationship between money-hungry cities and money-grubbing AMS. Have any of you timed the yellow lights? Once yellow light times are increased, the cameras become unprofitiable and are removed. Of course that means that there are significantly less red-light violations. Wasn't that the idea in the first place? Or to make money? Use your brains and figure it out. Go you SHORTyellowLIGHTS.com and get the truth.
Your name
Fri Apr 24 2009 12:43
If you stop at the line, even for a split second, the camera wont flash. The reason you have to stop at the line is so people walking dont have to worry about a car hitting them.

But I'm against having cameras in general.

you are sheeple
Mon Apr 20 2009 19:38
Holy crap people...are you that brainwashed into thinking we need to be policed and watched 24/7 to be safe. This is just the beginning of the oppression that is to come. Have fun =)
LEO
Mon Apr 20 2009 19:11
city ordinances are somewhat like executive orders - so if you have a problem with the fact that is was made illegal in the state legislature, oh well. Maybe you should care more about small time city elections and realize that it's not the President of the United States who affects your life everyday, but it's the people who work 9-5 at your local city council
Linda
Sun Apr 19 2009 08:03
Most people do stop for a red light before turning right. The problem is you stop above the traffic to your left so you can see. This is the point the camera takes the picture. If you stop at the line like you are supposed to, you see nothing but the traffic to your left. If you do stop for 10 seconds, and then proceed, no ticket.
Brett Upthagrove
Wed Mar 25 2009 14:18
We have protections against Big Brother type tactics by the Florida state legislature. This is A) violation of undue government intrusion clause of the Constitution, which is why the Florida legislature has banned this practice by municipality. B) What the City is doing is against Florida law. Now when someone says you broke the law just pay it, why can't the city be held to the same standards of the law. The law is clear because they don't want municipalities to use this device to circumvent civil rights and produce revenue which is what the city is doing. If they really cared they would issue a warning for the first violation but they didn't. Who will finally contest this and file a class action against the city for their illegal activity?I have tried to figure out how to fight this and have come up with nothing that would not cause me to put all the real property I own to be in jeopardy of being confiscated for City attorneys fees if I were to lose appeals. I have a solution. It is simple and goes along with what the one person said about violating the law and paying the ticket. My solution involves the law that says that it is illegal to put cameras on DOT property. So that means that the cameras are on private property. On that property is CVS pharmacy. In the least I suggest you refrain from doing any business with this store or corporation for allowing the violation of your civil rights. I would strongly suggest you personally speak to the manager of the store to let them know of your intentions not to shop there and the reasons of it. I would ask that you send an e-mail through the CVS web site to allow them to know your intention. Lastly I would consider taking CVS to small claims court to for violating your civil rights, by costing you $100 or more in municipal code violations. Speak with your money. Don't allow your friends to go to this pharmacy and their fascist, big brother ethics. The issue here is clear. This is illegal to issue violations in spirit. The legislature needs to take on this issue and specifically ban the use of these devices. Orwell warned us of this "1984" society and the striping of our civil rights by right wing "ditto heads" like the ones who see no problem with what is occuring. Does anyone realize that the governement exsists becasue of us and not for us??????Now when someone says you broke the law just pay it, why can't the city be held to the same standards of the law. The law is clear because they don't want municipalities to use this device to circumvent civil rights and produce revenue which is what the city is doing. If they really cared they would issue a warning for the first violation but they didn't. Who will finally contest this and file a class action against the city for their illegal activity?I have tried to figure out how to fight this and have come up with nothing that would not cause me to put all the real property I own to be in jeopardy of being confiscated for City attorneys fees if I were to lose appeals. I have a solution. It is simple and goes along with what the one person said about violating the law and paying the ticket. My solution involves the law that says that it is illegal to put cameras on DOT property. So that means that the cameras are on private property. On that property is CVS pharmacy. In the least I suggest you refrain from doing any business with this store or corporation for allowing the violation of your civil rights. I would strongly suggest you personally speak to the manager of the store to let them know of your intentions not to shop there and the reasons of it. I would ask that you send an e-mail through the CVS web site to allow them to know your intention. Lastly I would consider taking CVS to small claims court to for violating your civil rights, by costing you $100 or more in municipal code violations. Speak with your money. Don't allow your friends to go to this pharmacy and their fascist, big brother ethics. The issue here is clear. This is illegal to issue violations in spirit. The legislature needs to take on this issue and specifically ban the use of these devices. Orwell warned us of this "1984" society and the striping of our civil rights by right wing "ditto heads" like the ones who see no problem with what is occuring. Does anyone realize that the governement exsists becasue of us and not for us??????Now when someone says you broke the law just pay it, why can't the city be held to the same standards of the law. The law is clear because they don't want municipalities to use this device to circumvent civil rights and produce revenue which is what the city is doing. If they really cared they would issue a warning for the first violation but they didn't. Who will finally contest this and file a class action against the city for their illegal activity?I have tried to figure out how to fight this and have come up with nothing that would not cause me to put all the real...
Michael
Sat Jan 24 2009 17:08
The law is being broken by the "terrorists" of the Temple Terrace city council. They are as bad as the terrorists outside of our borders and should be treated the same way for breaking the law, international or domestic, maybe even more harshly because their supposed to be "pro american" and not act like Joseph Stalin. Why don't we all start breaking the law and using loopholes to make it o.k. Anarchy will prevail and we can revert to the days of the wild, wild ,west when you could get away with shooting your enemy.. Then the cops will have some real work to do.
SOG
Tue Dec 23 2008 07:32
How about making a complete stop? I know it sounds crazy, but give it a try and you will the see the number of tickets decrease.
Karen
Thu Dec 4 2008 15:36
It seems like a simple concept yeah but if they are not calibrated right people will be getting tickets for running a red light, when in fact they did not. In fact I have seen the flash go off because someone did not stop at the right spot before making a right turn. There is such a small window at the corner of Fowler and 56th street that if you do not come to a complete stop just before the line then you will get your picture taken.
Michael
Wed Dec 3 2008 18:27
I think its criminal, and the city officials should be arrested. If a law was passed banning the use of Red Light cameras then the city should respect that. By them using a city ordinance to get around the law they are no different than common crimals. How, well look at it this way. If I steal $500 from you I am a thief and a criminal so if I con you out of $500 to get around the law against stealing would I not still be a thief? I say every resident of Temple Terrace should go break every law they can in this way If its against the law to damage a police car simple drop a brick on it that way gravity did it not you and you are getting around the law. This way you would be exactly the same a city council officals who brought in these red light cameras and used a city ordinance to get around the law. And no I have not gotten a ticket from any of these cameras I just read this article and the thought of a body of publically elected officials disrespecting the law in this way by trying to get around the laws intent absolutly sickens me, and every council member that voted for it should resign and hold their head in shame for the example they have set.
JLH
Wed Dec 3 2008 15:26
i feel that the problem isn't the people but the lights them selves, i myself drive a big truck and can't really stop on a dime, especially with a load or in poor conditions. anyways the yellow "proceed with caution" light is never long enough for me because most time im past my safe brake zone when they turn yellow then it'll be red before i blow through, and if i would of tried to stop id be stopped slap dab in the middle of intersection. if the yellow lasted longer i can either start braking earlier or have more time to blow thru SAFELY without running a red.

over all, red light running can be adverted by smart driving, what they DONT teach in drivers ed, you look down the road and observe, if people are coming up from the sides, check up cause they tripped the sensor that changes the light. or if youre in the city and the light is green for a while check up also cuz it might be on a timer. simple as that

Angered Temple Terrace Resident
Tue Dec 2 2008 23:32
Jill, I agree. Particularly at the Busch/Bullard intersection where one direction has a yield sign and the other does not, how can anybody be expected to follow inconsistent intersections? The fact of the matter is that Temple Terrace did not follow the rules by reengineering the intersection before resulting to camera-enforced fines as the DOT prescribes. This is the reason why residents of the city are pissed off at the council members...because they did not follow the rules and could only see the profits that would come. Not to mention all of the studies that have found these cameras actually endanger public safety...read the USF study. And in response to Mr. Weiss, who is more likely to be obviously biased, an independent third-party researcher or somebody whose job depends upon rigging studies so that they result in favorable data?
Jill
Fri Nov 14 2008 15:23
It seems like such a simple concept. But, wait until you get a $100 ticket for turning right on red while the intersection was clear. It seems I didn't come to a complete stop before turning (the speed recorded was 5 mph). Proceeding at 5 mph into a clear intersection while crossing absolutely no lanes of traffic is clearly dangerous and a great use of city resources.
William
Sun Nov 9 2008 00:19
How about just stopping for the red light like you're supposed to. You won't get a ticket if you stop.

USF, the 13th grade and proving it daily

good Lord people....
Fri Nov 7 2008 22:02
Why is it so offensive to people that you might get in trouble for breaking the law????? And by the way , this isn't one of those "victimless" crimes. People are killed EVERY day by careless morons running red lights. If you ran the light, You should ABSOLUTELY get a ticket.

TL, Are you serious? "Know your rights" ???? YOU BROKE THE FREAKING LAW ! PAY THE FINE !!

TL
Fri Nov 7 2008 10:26
According to Florida Law, they cannot put points on your license for a violation from a camera device. You really do not have to pay the fine. This is beause it is a city ordinance, they can only stay within their city ordinance powers and take away such city rights as library card use or building permits. Bottom line, know your rights
Anthony
Fri Nov 7 2008 01:46
If you have some person riding your bumper and your car is a piece of crap, slam on the brakes and let him hit you. They get a ticket and you call a lawyer for your back pain and a new car
Hit by a car walking on campus
Thu Nov 6 2008 18:03
AND how about enforcing speed limits? It's so much fun to jump out of the path of a speeding car on campus...and I love when I try to obey the posted speed limits and some jerk behind me decides to ride my bumper. If everyone would just obey the traffic laws on and off campus, we could all be safer.